2.4L owners should be quite pleased with their engines, but you can do so much more and soon you will be able to. I don’t know if you have really researched this engine but please check read what allpar.com has to say about it here:

http://allpar.com/mopar/world-engine.html

You will read that the 2.4 was designed to be turbocharged, and when turbocharged it pumps out 285HP!! In fact the Caliber SRT-4 will have the same base engine and the Mopar turbo kit that will fit your engine. There may need to be some computer adjustments, but at least you will have the ability to by a kit that was made to fit the engine.

yah there was a group from chrysler i can't remember wat their names were but they made a concept avenger with a turbo 2.4 but they made the car look weird it was i think called a starchy something i cant remember

I want a SRT-6!!!!! :)

jugahdor, I think they called it the Stormtrooper. Did it look like this:

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q48/Tomas_045/Slike%20Auta%205/avenger-stormtrooper3.jpg

AvengerRT, only if it is the 3.5 high output. That sounds like fun.

They gonna make a turbo or supercharger for the r/t, i ahve not heard yet.

I'd like to see those stormtrooper wheels in black on my car...I think it would look sweet :)

GuhsDreg thats not the one im talking about i know which one that is n that does'nt have the 2.4 it that one has the nitro 4.0 v6 engine in that one.
the one i was talking about is the dodge avenger startech i remember now heres a picture of it





http://www.blogsmithmedia.com/www.autoblog.com/media/2007/09/starster_hi002.jpg

if you want the full info on this car heres the link
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/09/10/frankfurt-preview-335-hp-dodge-avenger-based-startech-starster/

jugahdor, I think they called it the Stormtrooper. Did it look like this:

http://i133.photobucket.com/albums/q48/Tomas_045/Slike%20Auta%205/avenger-stormtrooper3.jpg

AvengerRT, only if it is the 3.5 high output. That sounds like fun.

The Stormtrooper came from the skunk works at Ma Mopar, with a 4.0L. With the weight of the Avenger and a SC 4.0L, the 5.7L Charger boys would not be happy.

lol um not only the charger boys lol any one with mustangs would b pissd hahaha imagine it turbo charge :0 dat would b scary hahah

so i guess they r not gonna make a turbo or supercharger for the r/t huh?

I would have to guess that they most likely will if the popularity continues. There are rumors.

You could make your own Turbo for the R/T. Then you could sell the plans to others who want a turbo...

Yea i tried that, i got a estimate of 6000 to me is was not worth it. But if i had a 4 cyl they could of put one in that day for 2700. To me 6000 was not worth it, im just gonna wait to c what comes out for it .

yah there was a group from chrysler i can't remember wat their names were but they made a concept avenger with a turbo 2.4 but they made the car look weird it was i think called a starchy something i cant rememberOh Jesus "Starchy'? I guess as long as it isn't "Stale" :)

$6k is very pricy. I wouldn't do that either lol

2700 for the 2.4?? Was this motor used in the neons or something?

Well, we now have a way to get a turbo for the 2.4L Avenger. The SRT4 Caliber has got it. But is there room for the massive intercooler?
It'll be nice to have a 285HP 2.4L turbo Avenger

Well, we now have a way to get a turbo for the 2.4L Avenger. The SRT4 Caliber has got it. But is there room for the massive intercooler?
It'll be nice to have a 285HP 2.4L turbo AvengerI don't see how it would be a problem, especially since the Avenger has more room under the hood than the Caliber. I'm sure someone is going to pay to have the Caliber turbo system hooked up, just have to wait and see. I have been tempted to check on it myself, but my "boss" says no.:kap:

More room under the hood yes. But an intercooler typically goes in front of the radiator. The front facia and hood on the SRT4 must be 2 - 3 inches longer. And even then, it's a tight fit. Where there is a will, there is a way I suppose.

Maybe there will be a new front fascia when the turbo comes out. Maybe that is what they are working on for the SRT4 Avenger.

More room under the hood yes. But an intercooler typically goes in front of the radiator. The front facia and hood on the SRT4 must be 2 - 3 inches longer. And even then, it's a tight fit. Where there is a will, there is a way I suppose.
If what you say about the Caliber SRT4 is correct, then I must concede. I was under the impression that the Caliber SRT4 was the same (dimension wise) with the standard Caliber. I wish I knew what the dimensions are for the cooler so I could check clearances cause I am tempted. :D

The front fascia in the Caliber does stick out 2-3 inches according to Dodge for the SRT-4 over stock. Though there is a fair amount of room in front of the radiator. Maybe instead of going as wide maybe they could make it taller, at a slant towards the back, etc. to get the required airflow.

If what you say about the Caliber SRT4 is correct, then I must concede. I was under the impression that the Caliber SRT4 was the same (dimension wise) with the standard Caliber. I wish I knew what the dimensions are for the cooler so I could check clearances cause I am tempted. :D

The overall dimensions are the same (bumber to bumper), but look at any picture of the SRT4 compared to a normal Caliber. You can see that the hood extends past the top of the headlights. It makes the bumper look shorter. At the dealer, I remember thinking "wow that's a tight fit." The intercooler was just a few millimeters behind the grill.

The overall dimensions are the same (bumber to bumper), but look at any picture of the SRT4 compared to a normal Caliber. You can see that the hood extends past the top of the headlights. It makes the bumper look shorter. At the dealer, I remember thinking "wow that's a tight fit." The intercooler was just a few millimeters behind the grill.
Do you know what the measurements are for the intercooler? I'm really curious to find out if any mods will need to be done to the fascia or not. May even be able to use an aftermarket one that would afford easier installation. Just brainstorming here.

It looked to be about 2 1/2 to 3" inches thick. Maybe 2' wide. Couldn't really see the height, but i'd guess (like I haven't guessed on the first two dimensions) maybe 12" to 18" in height. There wouldn't be much more room than that for height.

Found a pic
http://z.about.com/d/cars/1/7/U/0/1/ag_08srt4_intercooler.jpg

Do you know what the measurements are for the intercooler? I'm really curious to find out if any mods will need to be done to the fascia or not. May even be able to use an aftermarket one that would afford easier installation. Just brainstorming here.

The stock one measures 32"x12"x4".

The stock one measures 32"x12"x4".

That sounds about right. That's also the size of the one in the SRT4 Neon.
I figured the Caliber's would be a little narrower and a little taller.

May even be able to use an aftermarket one that would afford easier installation. Just brainstorming here.

Aftermarket may be less expensive as well.

The stock one measures 32"x12"x4".I just got done checking my car, and if that measurement is right, there appears to be plenty of room for the cooler. Because of my med problems, I really couldn't climb under the car with a measuring tape and do a proper measurement.

You might not have to wait for an Avenger to do this. Don't forget about the Sebring. It is a direct swap, and the "World" motor is already built for a turbo with the increased water jackets, thicker walls, etc... For a max horsepower street racer, the 2.4L Avenger/Sebring platform is the best and easiest to do it with. The possibilities far out gain that of the 3.5L platforms....


How about this...


http://image.automobilemag.com/f/auto_shows/2006_sema/6688114/0610_z+2007_chrysler_sebring_skunkworks+front_corn er.jpg

You might not have to wait for an Avenger to do this. Don't forget about the Sebring. It is a direct swap, and the "World" motor is already built for a turbo with the increased water jackets, thicker walls, etc... For a max horsepower street racer, the 2.4L Avenger/Sebring platform is the best and easiest to do it with. The possibilities far out gain that of the 3.5L platforms....


How about this...




I dunno about all that...it's just hard to compare the slapstick in the 3.5's to the 4cyl regular auto...it's like...yeahhhhhhhhhhh I've got tons of HP and it's all auto! :D And if your going to swap the trans, etc....why buy an avenger? Maybe it's a guy thing, but I like being able to shift... even if you compare the 2.4 to the 3.5, I'm just not seeing the potential w/ the tech specs on dodge's site...

http://www-5.dodge.com/vehsuite/VehicleCompare.jsp

I dunno about all that...it's just hard to compare the slapstick in the 3.5's to the 4cyl regular auto...it's like...yeahhhhhhhhhhh I've got tons of HP and it's all auto! :D And if your going to swap the trans, etc....why buy an avenger? Maybe it's a guy thing, but I like being able to shift... even if you compare the 2.4 to the 3.5, I'm just not seeing the potential w/ the tech specs on dodge's site...

http://www-5.dodge.com/vehsuite/VehicleCompare.jsp


But you are not shifting...the autostick is just there to fool you into thinking you are shifting, (I had in my 300M) Remember high school and you ramming that auto down in low and thinking you were shifting...same thing, just fancier now...

As far as potential - If I gave you $3000 for a 3.5L and then gave $3000 to a 2.4L, who do you think would have the better performance? Potential - take the price difference between the R/T and 2.4L and use the money to build a creaper....

But you are not shifting...the autostick is just there to fool you into thinking you are shifting, (I had in my 300M) Remember high school and you ramming that auto down in low and thinking you were shifting...same thing, just fancier now...

As far as potential - If I gave you $3000 for a 3.5L and then gave $3000 to a 2.4L, who do you think would have the better performance? Potential - take the price difference between the R/T and 2.4L and use the money to build a creaper....

Ok..then why is it when I have the A/S in 1st gear, I can redline and squeel the tires as much as I want, but when in regular auto, it automatically shifts and it's just not as fun? And I never did the high school thing lol but I wasn't into cars back then as I am now...lol

As for potential, maybe in the ideal world - I am feeling a lot of aftermarket manufacturers are moving away from the 4cyl engines, if you look at the competition, all of the imports are mostly running w/ v6's now except a few....and the avenger is not really a good comparison vehicle in its class unless you want to compare it to the lesser class like the ford focus, mazda 3i, etc...

In that 17K-20K MSRP price bracket, you have the following 2008's available all available with manual transmissions:

Chevy Cobalt
Honda Civic's
Mitsubishi Lancer
Pontiac G5 GT
Ford Fusion

So in reality now, we have our avenger with a regular automatic transmission. This is where I don't see the potential. If I wanted to really get into the modding and racing scene, the avenger would not be my choice. The aftermarket support is there for those vehicles, but I don't see it happening as much for the avenger as I can't see people putting in a short throw shifter, adding a blow off valve, putting in a turbo/supercharger w/ a intercooler, etc...it's just not a car meant to be in that scene unfortunately...Sorry to be negative as I do love my R/T, but I don't see as much aftermarket support for the avenger 4cyl as the models I listed above. I had the same issues when I had my stratus. The only turbo available for it was one some guy made by himself...

But back to comparison, the R/T is a creeper out of the box so to speak as it's very quick so all in all, I would say it would probably be the same, if you were to use the difference in $$$ to upgrade the 2.4.

You might not have to wait for an Avenger to do this. Don't forget about the Sebring. It is a direct swap, and the "World" motor is already built for a turbo with the increased water jackets, thicker walls, etc... For a max horsepower street racer, the 2.4L Avenger/Sebring platform is the best and easiest to do it with. The possibilities far out gain that of the 3.5L platforms....


How about this...


http://image.automobilemag.com/f/auto_shows/2006_sema/6688114/0610_z+2007_chrysler_sebring_skunkworks+front_corn er.jpg


I have one question. 2.4L turbo and a 3.5L non turbo'ed but with agressive cam's and running jungle juice (50 shot). Which would be a better street racer, and why ?

Ok..then why is it when I have the A/S in 1st gear, I can redline and squeel the tires as much as I want, but when in regular auto, it automatically shifts and it's just not as fun?

Because it's an automatic that lets you have control of the shift points.


But back to comparison, the R/T is a creeper out of the box so to speak as it's very quick so all in all, I would say it would probably be the same, if you were to use the difference in $$$ to upgrade the 2.4.

If I put the difference, say $3000, into the 2.4, I'd smoke your stock 3.5. Easily.:)


I have one question. 2.4L turbo and a 3.5L non turbo'ed but with agressive cam's and running jungle juice (50 shot). Which would be a better street racer, and why ?

Oh c'mon. Why don't I just hand you the pink slip. :)

Because it's an automatic that lets you have control of the shift points.



If I put the difference, say $3000, into the 2.4, I'd smoke your stock 3.5. Easily.:)




Oh c'mon. Why don't I just hand you the pink slip. :)

LOL It's on Dave! But my 3.5 won't be stock once they start making stuff :D

LOL It's on Dave! But my 3.5 won't be stock once they start making stuff :D

That's what I figured. :)

k this to zeeman,first off u if u compare the avenger in it's class( it is better than allot of cars in its class but not in the top 3)

second the lancer doesn't have stick as a option any more they have the paddle shifter which is like auto stick
and if the avenger is( as u said
"and the avenger is not really a good comparison vehicle in its class "
mitsubishi galant, acura TL, Honda Acord( depends on driver or type of model)

if u compare them we have more good, n some bad about our cars than above,
also our car can beat the cars i listed above( again depends on the acord driver n model)

ooh n one more thing i think the avenger is WAY BETTER than the fusion :D

k this to zeeman,first off u if u compare the avenger in it's class( it is better than allot of cars in its class but not in the top 3)

second the lancer doesn't have stick as a option any more they have the paddle shifter which is like auto stick
and if the avenger is( as u said
"and the avenger is not really a good comparison vehicle in its class "
mitsubishi galant, acura TL, Honda Acord( depends on driver or type of model)

if u compare them we have more good, n some bad about our cars than above,
also our car can beat the cars i listed above( again depends on the acord driver n model)

ooh n one more thing i think the avenger is WAY BETTER than the fusion :D

Wait I was comparing 4cyl only in that price range - the TL is a joke to me :P With the 4cyl version, in all reality, I guess it's a car in its own class...It has the luxury/body style of the V6 classes as well as size (not small like the focus)...but is the engine really better than that of what me/you have listed? Is there really that much potential that even the aftermarket shops that have little to no interest in domestic vehicles might blink an eye? I doubt it... That's the point I was trying to get to :D

Now the R/T on the other hand...in the V6 class, I would say it would be within all of these:

(all v6 models)
Mustangs
Chargers
Camaros
Firebirds/Trans Ams
Some Acura Models
Accords (v6's)
Tiburons
Mazda 6i's and the RX-8
Eclipses
G6's and maybe the new G8's, maybe the GTO's...
Grand Prix's
Maybe even the Nissan 350z...even though its fast as all hell and the R/T would definitely need to be modded :P

BMW also is stepping into this "mid V6 class" is what I call it, with their new 128i coming out in March - so now you have all kinds of car manufacturers getting into this game...

This could also be the decision factor w/ aftermarket manufacturers, I've never worked for one nor know anyone that owns one so I don't know how they think...but maybe the more competition a car has, the more people spark an interest...as if theoretically, if I was driving a grand prix and messed around w/ the avenger R/T and got smoked...I'd either find out everything about it and see what parts they could be using and see its potential or buy more performance parts for my own car or I may even considering getting one you never know...now that just sparked up competition between the 2 cars...you know what I mean? That's where I see the potential...

I think the 4cyl modding/tuning scene are coming to an end...there's just not much left...they will become your cheap economy car that everyone can afford such as when neon's once ruled the world...but for the guys that want the step up for performance, they'll stick to the v6's...for the guys that are the big gear heads and don't care about economical performance, they'll stick w/ the v8's...

So yeah that's my babble :p

Because it's an automatic that lets you have control of the shift points.



If I put the difference, say $3000, into the 2.4, I'd smoke your stock 3.5. Easily.:)




Oh c'mon. Why don't I just hand you the pink slip. :)

^ Very good answers dave.

Let me know when you guys are going to race! ;)

So who is gonna race now....Avenger VS ?

Let me know when you guys are going to race! ;)

LOLOLOL You can be the ref! LOL

So who is gonna race now....Avenger VS ?

If all works out, I know a guy that has a cam'ed and juiced (50shot) Avenger AWD R/T in the building mode right now. He'll race anything win or lose.

I just hope that cam'ed and juiced Avenger does not end up like this.

me to lol i dont want to c that...

If all works out, I know a guy that has a cam'ed and juiced (50shot) Avenger AWD R/T in the building mode right now. He'll race anything win or lose.

I just hope that cam'ed and juiced Avenger does not end up like this.


I hate it when my car catchs fire and burns to a crisp! Thank God for gap insurance! :p

I wonder if your insurance would still cover you if you put a mod on that blows it up?

Was that a neon? That is one HOT car!

I wonder if your insurance would still cover you if you put a mod on that blows it up?


Just depends on what they can prove you did lol...

So yeah that's my babble :p

u can't compare a family car againts sports cars( weight diffrence)

if ur gona compare the avenger againts something in the v6 class u must compare it againts what class it's in

u can't compare a family car againts sports cars( weight diffrence)

if ur gona compare the avenger againts something in the v6 class u must compare it againts what class it's in

I was referring to the R/T...it's considered a "Midsize Sports Sedan" according to my insurance company. SE/SXT may be considered a family car...dunno don't have one..But the R/T is comparable to those cars as I stated before, and the weight isn't really a difference...

A Mustang coupe weights 100-200lbs less (depending on the model) than an R/T yet they have 25 less HP than the R/T...

I guess let me rephrase, I am not trying to put the cars in a class, but more of a "Competition Window" so to speak...But this is going to get to technical and I don't feel like it blah :D

Let me know when you guys are going to race! ;)

Right after I add the twin turbo and nitrous to my 2.4L but before zeeman cams and adds nitrous to his 3.5L. :p

Right after I add the twin turbo and nitrous to my 2.4L but before zeeman cams and adds nitrous to his 3.5L. :p

Ought to be interesting! hehe

Right after I add the twin turbo and nitrous to my 2.4L but before zeeman cams and adds nitrous to his 3.5L. :p

Na, nitrous is for ricers who don't have a powerful enough engine to hang... :P

I will keep it simple, a CAI as soon as one comes out or I get fed and learn how to make one, and just swap out the muffler for some better sound...but I don't think you will be able to do twin turbo for $3000 lol

Twin turbo for 3000 that would be a cold day in hell lol......

but I don't think you will be able to do twin turbo for $3000 lol
Twin turbo for 3000 that would be a cold day in hell lol......
Where did I say I would only spend $3000? :)

Where did I say I would only spend $3000? :)

LOL It was that other dude who said something about $3000, I think we were limited to $3000 lol

I'd have around a $3000 advantage - starting with a 2.4L SXT vs 3.5L R/T. But we never talked about limited budgets.:p

I'd have around a $3000 advantage - starting with a 2.4L SXT vs 3.5L R/T. But we never talked about limited budgets.:p

Oh yeah thats what it was....ok so we'll theoretically say you have $3200 worth of mods, and my one $200 CAI, I still say the R/T would beat the 2.4 LOL

Oh yeah thats what it was....ok so we'll theoretically say you have $3200 worth of mods, and my one $200 CAI, I still say the R/T would beat the 2.4 LOL


I smell challenge!! :)

I smell challenge!! :)

Dave should feel lucky I'll have my R/T and not my KIA Benzo....

Dave should feel lucky I'll have my R/T and not my KIA Benzo....

Kia benzo is a super sleeper I hear. ;)

Kia benzo is a super sleeper I hear. ;)

Dude, out of the box it has 985HP, that's why I got the wide 24's on it so it don't roll over from all the power...

Kia Benzo? Never heard of it. What is it, some Sonata with being pushed by a bus?

Kia Benzo? Never heard of it. What is it, some Sonata with being pushed by a bus?

lol na, read about it here...

http://avengerforumz.com/showthread.php?t=9460&page=6

[quote=zeeman;17372]Na, nitrous is for ricers who don't have a powerful enough engine to hang... :P

There are alot of Charger R/T's that have nitrous installed for drag racing and street racing. It would be rice if it's an 1.8L Civic with a 75shot, and a wing on the back that belongs on a 747.

[quote=zeeman;17372]Na, nitrous is for ricers who don't have a powerful enough engine to hang... :P

There are alot of Charger R/T's that have nitrous installed for drag racing and street racing. It would be rice if it's an 1.8L Civic with a 75shot, and a wing on the back that belongs on a 747.

LOL I completely agree, I was actually directing that comment pretty much towards anything that's an import...I am anti-import - that's why I stick to american :D

Right on brother, me too. I got my dad one of those Calvin peeing stickers that has him peeing on imports. I need to find one of him peeing on God's gift to mankind, the Toyrota. All you ever see is domestics. Well I say screw that, I just want to see him peeing on the imports.

Right on brother, me too. I got my dad one of those Calvin peeing stickers that has him peeing on imports. I need to find one of him peeing on God's gift to mankind, the Toyrota. All you ever see is domestics. Well I say screw that, I just want to see him peeing on the imports.

LOL Yeah well it used to be cool like 10 years ago, there were barely any imports in Michigan, everyone had something american made...then stupid Fast and the Furious came out in 01 I believe, then EVERYONE had to be a wannabe and get an import...lol

PS - How's that intake coming? :)

I am still waiting on the pipe to come in the mail. I am hoping maybe tomorrow or Tuesday it will be here. I will let you know when I start, and give some updates and pics as I go. Hopefully it all goes well. Although always into cars, I have never done much to cars before, but I do like projects in general and try to be detailed in stuff that I do. This one doesn't seem too complicated, and I have done alot of researching about making them. Besides, it is a pretty hard mod to screw up. (whether or not I get a boost in some areas is nothing guaranteed, but hard to hurt it) Good project to start with if I plan on doing more than this, which I do.

I am still waiting on the pipe to come in the mail. I am hoping maybe tomorrow or Tuesday it will be here. I will let you know when I start, and give some updates and pics as I go. Hopefully it all goes well. Although always into cars, I have never done much to cars before, but I do like projects in general and try to be detailed in stuff that I do. This one doesn't seem too complicated, and I have done alot of researching about making them. Besides, it is a pretty hard mod to screw up. (whether or not I get a boost in some areas is nothing guaranteed, but hard to hurt it) Good project to start with if I plan on doing more than this, which I do.

Awesome, keep us posted - maybe I can follow your directions...I don't patience to make crap unless it's with computers :D

Well planed on putting a Red Hot on car but heard a V-6 stang this weekend with one on it and didn't like the sound glad I heard it before went threw the work.

I also heard they start rusting and falling apart after a few years anyways. They also start getting louder and louder with time.

I also heard they start rusting and falling apart after a few years anyways. They also start getting louder and louder with time.
Ya as in all glass pack muffers as glass burns up gets loader because it becomes a straight pipe.

We may need to change the title of this thread... Why 285 HP?

We know the Caliber SRT4 with turbo puts out 285 HP. But just found some more info on the 2.4L in the Startech Avenger. I don't think I paid attention the last time I read about it 'cause it looks so ugly.

http://www.tuningnews.net/article/070910c/startech_starster/

"Top-of-the-line model is a 2.4-liter (146 cu. in.) four-cylinder turbocharged engine with variable valve timing and a maximum power output of 340 PS (335 HP) / 250 kW at 6,400 rpm and a peak torque of 400 Nm (295 lb-ft) at 3,600 rpm."

"Performance of the STARTECH STARSTER is comparable to that of classic American muscle cars: 5.6 seconds from rest to 100 km/h (62 mph) and a top speed of 265 km/h (165 mph)."

"A number of components found in the STARSTER concept car will be included in the exclusive STARTECH customization program for the Dodge Avenger."

Nothing yet for the Avenger on there Website.
Go here http://www.startech.de/homee.htm and click on Programs.

I also heard they start rusting and falling apart after a few years anyways. They also start getting louder and louder with time.

I wonder why that is?

2.4L owners should be quite pleased with their engines, but you can do so much more and soon you will be able to. I don’t know if you have really researched this engine but please check read what allpar.com has to say about it here:

http://allpar.com/mopar/world-engine.html

You will read that the 2.4 was designed to be turbocharged, and when turbocharged it pumps out 285HP!! In fact the Caliber SRT-4 will have the same base engine and the Mopar turbo kit that will fit your engine. There may need to be some computer adjustments, but at least you will have the ability to by a kit that was made to fit the engine.

Yes, of course. The problem is the transmission. It cant handle the turbo boost. So Ive heard. Can anyone confirm or deny?

And if this is all correct, where can a person purchase the Mopar Turbo? Im ready to throw down some serious cash for a turbo for my car.

Y go with the Mopar. Its gonna be too much for a stock motor, get a litle smaller one. If u had the supporting mods to handle the Mopar turbo then go with a little bigger one. Just my thoughts.

Dont suppose there was ever some development on this? So many of us 2.4ls are looking for some serious power upgrades! I emailed JET the other day about coming up with a 2.4 chip -- sadly no response.

Dont suppose there was ever some development on this? So many of us 2.4ls are looking for some serious power upgrades! I emailed JET the other day about coming up with a 2.4 chip -- sadly no response.

Same here I called mopar some months back about getting headers for our car and they said they have nothing else planned for the avenger other than the current intake and exhaust. Sucks :smiledown:

Ive never been in the situation where i wanted to burn money on my car and i couldnt find somewhere to spend it, this is ridiculous! (well, im sure i could think of somethings, but im not ready to drop $450 on my nos kit)