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2008 R/T - Won't start after stalling.

14K views 150 replies 8 participants last post by  5rebel9 
#1 · (Edited)
Good evening everyone! To help with my vehicle, she is a 2008 Avenger R/T AWD 3.5, purchased 2nd hand @ ~144k miles, now with 150,017. I am the second owner of the vehicle and have only changed the oil (2 days after purchase) and replaced the headlights. No mods. The previous owner seemed "decent," but nowhere near someone that LOVES their car. Thus a few dings and sadly bad sun damage to the paint on the hood and roof. The only real issue I've had was the car taking anywhere from 4-7 seconds to start in some cases. Would crank as normal, but wouldn't engage until then. (Check engine light has not been on prior to this, at least not for me.)

Unfortunately, yesterday after visiting my grandmother in physical rehab, while driving about ~40MPH, my Avenger suddenly began to lose power slowly. RPM dropped from about ~3000 to less than 1000, and MPH slowly declined as well. The Electronic Throttle Control light began to flash, and as I decelerated to about ~15MPH to get off the road, the car then stalled. I pulled safely into a residential neighborhood and set her into park. When I try to start the car, all lights are fully lit, nothing dim nor does it dim. When engaged, the serpentine belt will begin to spin but that's it. Nothing else.

I read a bit about it as I waited for a ride to pick me up and take me home, and decided to try the key wiggle trick as the check engine light / ETC lights were the only ones that would stay lit. It pulled code P0340, which tells me something is up with the camshaft position sensor. I also read a possible issue with the security system, so I disconnected the positive battery cable (the only one I could reach in an awkward location with no tools). Left it disconnected for about 5 minutes and reconnected it. No go. Removed the ignition fuse, along with a few others (I can get the ones I removed and post here if necessary), for about 30 seconds and plugged em back in. No luck. Tried to keep the start engaged between all gears, no dice.

Today, I took off work early and decided to head up to the car while I waited for my pops to head up from out of town to help me tow her home. Now, after the key wiggle, I'm pulling P0340 and a new code, P0522 which Google tells me is an issue with the Engine Oil Pressure Sensor / Switch Low Voltage. My oil was in the half-way mark of the safe line so I tossed in the extra quart I always keep with me to top it off, unfortunately, did not help. I had read a bit more and the fuses are what I tried today with no luck. I also read a possible issue with the fuel pump, but I can hear it engage when the key is turned on. I'm no mechanic, but my pops is decently knowledgeable and he does believe the starter is working as the serpentine belt and all connected move as they should. He's thinking we may be looking at the timing belt. However, the engine itself will not attempt to crank. Coolant level is good, and there have been 0 oil/stain spots anywhere I go. (I previously owned a '98 Saturn that ate a QT of oil a day with a bad leak, so I am CONSTANTLY looking for oil stains whenever I park). Suddenly today as well, my FOB will not open my trunk, nor will the interior switch. All other power switches in the car and on both of my FOB units function properly, except the trunk. At this moment, the battery has been removed now that she is back home. I also held the battery connections together for ~10 seconds to try and reset the computer.

This is where I'm at folks. If all fails tonight, I will upload a video tomorrow of the attempted engine start from the interior and exterior. If anyone may have been through this or has any guidance of what to look at next, your help is absolutely appreciated!

Avenge on!

*Edit*
Battery test complete, and did not resolve. However; the P0522 Oil Pressure Sensor code is now gone, the P0340 remains. Should it be the camshaft position sensor, can anyone point me to where it is on the 3.5? I either suck at Google, or I'm coming up with only the 2.4 location =(
 
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#116 · (Edited)
Well, not looking good folks. Mechanic spent the day going over it. Called my pops after about 10 minutes saying the engine ran perfectly fine, but unfortunately it just hadn't had time to warm up. After the issue presented itself, and his findings, he believes it is a piston wrist causing the knocking. So, if that's the case, I'll get a part that is essentially pennies on the dollar to what I paid for the engine, seller won't cover labor, leaving us to start from scratch.

Should this be the issue, our best bet is to pull the engine back out. Pop the heads off the new engine and have them remanned for the old block, part that one back together, and slap frankenstein back in.

I used the last of my savings to bring this together, and now am really not so sure where I'm going to go from here.

*Edit*
I should mention, it was a free diagnosis with no real "labor," put into it. So it is still likely to be another issue, which may in the end be much less significant. My pops is going to try the Seafoam flush tomorrow. I'm not holding my breath, but it's better to rule it out than never try.
 
#117 ·
That really sucks, all that hard work. The seller should replace the engine for you. Best of luck with the Seafoam.
 
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#121 ·
Well, I will DEFINITELY be learning a lot more about engines! We're gonna do it. We're gonna pull the heads off the new block, swap em with the heads from the old block, swap the timing kit, re-time, and slap her back in.

The process was a pain the first go around, but we discussed it, and we now know everything entailed with the removal/installation. So, Frankenstein it is :cool:
 
#123 · (Edited)
Just got the quote back from our mechanic, $1,355.05 for the repair. Officially $500 more than the entire motor itself. Again, should this be the issue. The sound is just to dominate on the top of the block near the front cam.

Stethoscope to the oil pan rendered nearly no clicking. So come sunday, were going to test the spark plug coil packs from my original block.

Additionally, we were suggested to remove each spark plug 1x1 to "disable" the cylinder? Not sure what this would do, but we'll see if we get any luck there.

Main question, we want to visually inspect the valves, if possible. Can we run the engine with the intake manifold removed? If so, I'll assume to keep the electronics connected and move off to the side. We will also try swapping the intake manifold with the one from my old block.

Any other tips beyond this? If we continue running into dead ends, my only other option I can think of is to tow it directly to the dealership and pay their $200 diagnostic fee to at least get a guaranteed answer of the issue.

Thanks folks!

*Edit* One thing that crossed my mind concerning the rocker arms, is there a possibility they were damaged when my timing belt broke?
 
#124 ·
OK, need to back up some here. That quote is to do exactly WHAT? And what is all this other diagnostic info trying coming from?
It has sounded like a "rocker tick" but you last said wrist pin slap of a piston.
A piston with a worn wrist pin will KNOCK almost like a bad rod...so can you tell us a bit more. What members and myself have been referring to as cam followers/lifters are also what Dodge parts are calling hydraulic valve lash adjusters, and they are in the ends of the rockers that contact the valve stems.(been doing some hunting on the web too)
 
#125 ·
The quote is the cost of the repair if his diagnosis of a piston wrist is accurate. Again, he did a free look over diagnostic. The only mechanical work he did was remove the 3 front spark plugs and listen. Outside of that, I believe 0 components outside of those mentioned were touched.

The lash adjusters, I did look at only all 4 rockers (replaced both) and there were no dings, scuffs, dents, etc. However, their spacing may be off, which I am unsure of how to tell. I will say, the tick was incredibly faint until after the test drive when I replaced the front rocker arm assembly. Substantially noticeable difference, up until it was driven.

Is there a way I can measure the lifter, or anything else I should be eyeing for with them?
 
#126 ·
Part of the reason that I posted to ISOLATE the noise first, before starting swapping components. There are a few components to each cylinder that need to be checked and condition verified as to good or bad before swapping whole units. I said the follower/lifter/ lash adjuster would NOT be an "eyeball" thing, but maybe change the rockers that they ride in with what you have.
Also noted that there was a problem common on all models using the 3.5 that a dowel pin that secures the shaft assy tends to break, REDUCING oil flow the the valve train. AND this can result in the Ticking noise from the rocker area.\
You are NOT in a "PLUG and PLAY" situation here, and even more difficult for us here to diagnose and pinpoint things over the "net" to you.
You have accomplished much already, but you are starting to go off on tangents, thus throwing the baby out with the bath water!...LOL;):)
 
#127 ·
Part of the reason that I posted to ISOLATE the noise first, before starting swapping components. There are a few components to each cylinder that need to be checked and condition verified as to good or bad before swapping whole units. I said the follower/lifter/ lash adjuster would NOT be an "eyeball" thing, but maybe change the rockers that they ride in with what you have.
Also noted that there was a problem common on all models using the 3.5 that a dowel pin that secures the shaft assy tends to break, REDUCING oil flow the the valve train. AND this can result in the Ticking noise from the rocker area.\
You are NOT in a "PLUG and PLAY" situation here, and even more difficult for us here to diagnose and pinpoint things over the "net" to you.
You have accomplished much already, but you are starting to go off on tangents, thus throwing the baby out with the bath water!...LOL;):)
Sounds good! I had assumed, a bad lifter would be rectified with the whole arm assembly. Unfortunately not the case. And without removing the valve cover with the engine running, I guess our best bet is to replace each arm 1x1 and install/test/repeat. Definitely strange how significantly reduced the noise was when we did toss the entire arm assembly on from the previous block. Sound isolated to front (driver side cam) No noise from timing compartment, drive belt, or oil pan. We did read on the dowel pin which, again visually appeared in-tact on both original block arm assembly and replacement block arm assembly. Needing to speak with my pops to gather more info from what exactly the mechanic "did." But, as you have mentioned, and for both my father and I, we are 90% sure the noise is isolated to the driver cam, 3rd plug.
 
#128 ·
A video I forgot to share after we swapped the front rocker last Monday. Here, engine is warmed up, and clicking, if any, is very very faint.

Before clicking


The difference is incredible. Which has me believing as Rebel mentioned, something still valve train related, as the clicking did not appear until after my 1 mile test drive was done.

We will spend quite a bit more time assessing each rocker arm/lifter for anything out of the ordinary.
 
#129 ·
That sounded too good for wrist pin trouble, even while cold. MY bet is a loss of oil flow/ lash adjuster thru the oil passages in the head to the rocker shafts. Seeings how you swapped your original ones into this motor.
IF it is still together, can you make another video of it when hot, what a light rpm increase and back to idle? Wrist pin will sound like a rod knock when being rev'ed not an upper end tick sound.
BTW: what oil filter brand are you using?
 
#130 ·
That sounded too good for wrist pin trouble, even while cold. MY bet is a loss of oil flow/ lash adjuster thru the oil passages in the head to the rocker shafts. Seeings how you swapped your original ones into this motor.
IF it is still together, can you make another video of it when hot, what a light rpm increase and back to idle? Wrist pin will sound like a rod knock when being rev'ed not an upper end tick sound.
BTW: what oil filter brand are you using?
We have been feeling the same in regards to a wrist pin. The vehicle is still all together as we last left it, I'll get a video together when I head back to my dad's on Sunday.

For the oil, we used Pennzoil, high mileage 10w-30 non-synthetic with a blue STP oil filter, S16 I believe. After these issues, I had read FRAM filters are no good, so I will avoid those going forward.
 
#134 ·
Well, it has been almost 4 months. My patience is HAVING to kick in now lol.

Well, leave it to Dads! He already shot a video of the idle knocking while warm, as well as increase in RPM. He did shoot this video solo, so he steps a little away from the engine to give the car gas, but I believe you can still hear everything ok.

 
#135 ·
WOW, that is a much harsher sound than ANY of your previous vid's! And to be honest WOULD make me want to investigate a bad wrist pin/piston slap. Problem is the oil pan and head would have to come off and piston and rod pulled...MAJOR WORK. Young sir, I really feel bad for you in this situation.:(
I truly wish I could say otherwise to the video! But you could give one last go at checking the rocker shaft assembly one last time.
 
#136 ·
Really feeling like thats a lost cause at this point unfortunately. It really is pointing to something more significant. When I talked with him over the phone, he definitely feels like we've addressed all we can in the valve train without pulling the head at this point.

Haven't really decided what to do at this point. Huge process backtracking and restarting from scratch, only to now have a major new step: rebuild.

Definitely understand these issues occur everywhere, but time and money at this point are starting to make it look like a project that just won't be accomplished on our end unfortunately.
 
#139 ·
Up to this point, I want to truly thank each and every one of you all for your assistance through this process. The overwhelming support for a newb is astounding, and the Avenger absolutely has a wonderful group of folks following.

Sunday, we will likely tear down the old block and assess the pistons for any damage and make our decision from there. If they are in good shape, then I will likely move forward with the rebuild, if not, the real fun begins!
 
#143 ·
Up to this point, I want to truly thank each and every one of you all for your assistance through this process. The overwhelming support for a newb is astounding, and the Avenger absolutely has a wonderful group of folks following.

Sunday, we will likely tear down the old block and assess the pistons for any damage and make our decision from there. If they are in good shape, then I will likely move forward with the rebuild, if not, the real fun begins!
Even though there are many more SEDANS out there still (COUPES are all but gone), The group here does their best to try and help keep these cars rolling!
 
#144 ·
Well folks, a brief but positive update! We have yet to hear back from the seller, should we not hear back by Tuesday, we'll get a claim started through eBay directly. However; my pops spent $100 out of his own pocket when we bought the motor, for an Assurant warranty. Well, he forwarded me Assurant's response, and they are sending me a check for the cost of the engine, less the shipping fee, within 7-10 days! So, from here, I will sit down with my pops on Monday when we meet for our Memorial Day bbq, and decide what we want to do with it. Rebuild, send to Dodge to get a 100% diagnosis, chance another block, etc.
 
#146 ·
I just finished reading your entire thread and shed a few tears realizing your bad luck on all of this work, at the end of the day you get to spend time with your father and you are learning a lot about playing cars which can be very rewarding. I have been fixing cars for my family and friends for about 45 years and still work on them in my final stages of this life ( I have an oxygen concentrator in my garage) . Persistence will eventually reward you here IMO , time for me to go fix my wife's LS1 issues.
CIAO
Dog
 
#150 ·
Well folks, after a long, considerable debate with myself, I have decided it is time to move on..... with Frankenstein that is. I really debated letting her go. I debated rebuilding with each of the blocks. No luck for a while. Today, I repaid my pops and we slapped his ZZ4 in his El Camino, and him and I had a good talk about the Venge.

All the knowledge Ive learned, coupled with what he already has, she will ride again =) I love this car far more than anything Ive ever driven, and the *extra* attention this 3.5 needs, imo, is worth it in the long run.

Now that we have his engine in, it is time to start digging back into the Venge. If anyone knows of an actual rebuild kit, please let me know. I'd like to go all out if I can, and I figure the refund on the engine will likely cover that, coupled with 2 blocks to strip whatever else may be needed.
 
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