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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I talked to them and we need abunch of ppl (members) wanting a diablo tuner, there is not enough interest on it so they r not in the make of it yet. If u guys send them non stop emails about the 3.5l tuner for the avenger we will get one.. So what they suggest is to bug the heck out of them with the avenger...If u want one respond to this if not dont respond..
 

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I'm interested if...

they can give me some tuning WITHOUT using premium gas (i know premium gives best performance, but for now, it's my daily driver).

it doesn't cost too much (I'm about to buy a superchips tuner for my dakota, less than $400).

- Dan M
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
My buddy just put his new tunor in yesterday from diablo and OMG what a diffrence, send them alot of emails saying u want one...
 

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Bullet im sorry, i know this is a bit off topic, but im replying to the last comment about High test fuel. I was ONLY filling up with Ultra 94 from my local Sunoco until i read this in the owners manuel.

Qoute, word for word. im not being a know it all smart ass, just puttin this out there for those who didnt know.

"the use of premium gasoline is not recommended. Under normal conditions the use of premium gasoline will not provide a benefit over high quality unleaded "regular or "mid grade" gasolines, and in some circumstances may result in poorer performance."

Actually, Bullet made a comment about this in earlier threads and i had to see it for myself. So now ive been meeting somewhat in the middle at 89 octane. I think more importantly than octane level is the quality of Station and fuel they have. In regards to a programmer or chip, i know some require premium. So i really dont have a point to this just wanted to share what the owners manuel states.


Id love the programmer. just cant afford mods right now, in the spring after trade school i plan on doing some.

Sorry im so far off topic.
 

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In Canada, the only gas you can get without MMT (gasoline equivalent of sawdust) is anything 91 octane and up. My old car was horribly abused before I got it (1985 Caprice with 240,000 miles on it) and I brought it back to life with High Octane and TLC. The second time I took the heads off it after about 6 months of good gas and good oil, with platinum plugs, there was a ton less carbon build up and everything inside didn't look black and gunky any more.

You can say what you want about higher octane not being necessary, I buy it because it burns hotter and cleaner, and leaves a lot less crud behind.
 

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Ok, you apparently didnt understand what i meant in my post. I was just pointing out what the owners manuel states about octane levels.

What exactly makes you think the gas sold in Canada is of a lower quality ??
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
The diablo sport tuner changes everything pretty much in the pc and requries higher octane is do it wrk, i called the dealer and they said 93+ will not hurt our motors at all, if u still have concerns call ur dealer and he will tell you what i have just told you.
 

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Basically, Dodge can't recommend 91 octane gas because then it would "increase the cost of ownership". Also, the octane rating is simply an indicator of the the compression and temperature the gasoline can withstand before it explodes. Higher compression engines need higher octane to prevent premature detonation. Based on >this definition alone< higher octane gas is not necessary.

However.

Higher octane gas usually is a "higher quality gasoline" as well. There are a few examples of this. Most 87 octane gas is "thinned" with a chemical called MMT. This chemical is an industrial process derivitive, which ends up trapping waste carbon, and other general yuck in the valvetrain and exhaust system. This stuff is awful for the environment, and hard on your engine as this stuff crystalizes and gets deposited into the oil system, and can later dissolve and harden in the oil lines and ducts in the engine. In short, it's car cholesterol.

91 fuel is other enhanced with ethanol and typically contains no MMT. The ethanol enhancement usually means that the fuel often provides more energy per unit volume. The fuel often undergoes one extra stage of refinement when created, and typically contains added detergents and solvents to keep fuel pumps and injectors clean.

Yes, it's more expensive to run 91 fuel in the short term, but after 100,000 miles of being fed industrial waste, your 87 motor is going to have compression loss, timing issues, and all those old motor problems.
 

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I think you have a few things backwards.

Most 87 octane gas is "thinned" with a chemical called MMT.
MMT is actually used to boost octane.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#MMT


91 fuel is other enhanced with ethanol and typically contains no MMT. The ethanol enhancement usually means that the fuel often provides more energy per unit volume.
Ethanol has less energy per liter than regular gasoline, so adding it to gasoline lowers the energy of the resulting fuel. It's the equivilent of adding beer to whiskey.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Energy_content

Now that that's clear. Let's learn that higher octane doesn't equal more energy per unit. And octane ratings are not a measurement of energy per unit.

It might seem odd that fuels with higher octane ratings explode less easily, yet are popularly thought of as more powerful. The misunderstanding is caused by confusing the ability of the fuel to resist compression detonation as opposed to the ability of the fuel to burn (combustion).
A simple explanation is that carbon-carbon bonds contain more energy than carbon-hydrogen bonds. Hence a fuel with a greater number of carbon bonds will carry more energy regardless of the octane rating. A counter example to this rule is that ethanol blend fuels have a higher octane rating, but carry a lower energy content by volume (per litre or per gallon). To a certain extent a fuel with a higher carbon ratio will be more dense than a fuel with a lower carbon ratio. Thus it is possible to formulate high octane fuels that carry less energy per liter than lower octane fuels. This is certainly true of ethanol blend fuels (gasohol).


With all that said. If you can believe the gas companies marketing claims, "A premium motor fuel will often be formulated to have both higher octane as well as more energy."
If the gas companies were completely honest, they would give us the energy rating, not the octane rating.
 

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I think you have a few things backwards.



MMT is actually used to boost octane.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#MMT




Ethanol has less energy per liter than regular gasoline, so adding it to gasoline lowers the octane of the resulting fuel. It's the equivilent of adding beer to whiskey.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Energy_content

Now that that's clear. Let's learn that higher octane doesn't equal more energy per unit. And octane is not a measurement of energy per unit.

It might seem odd that fuels with higher octane ratings explode less easily, yet are popularly thought of as more powerful. The misunderstanding is caused by confusing the ability of the fuel to resist compression detonation as opposed to the ability of the fuel to burn (combustion).
A simple explanation is that carbon-carbon bonds contain more energy than carbon-hydrogen bonds. Hence a fuel with a greater number of carbon bonds will carry more energy regardless of the octane rating. A counter example to this rule is that ethanol blend fuels have a higher octane rating, but carry a lower energy content by volume (per litre or per gallon). This is because ethanol is a partially oxidized hydrocarbon which can be seen by noting the presence of oxygen in the chemical formula: C2H5OH. Note the substitution of the OH hydroxyl group for a H hydrogen which transforms the gas ethane (C2H6) into ethanol. To a certain extent a fuel with a higher carbon ratio will be more dense than a fuel with a lower carbon ratio. Thus it is possible to formulate high octane fuels that carry less energy per liter than lower octane fuels. This is certainly true of ethanol blend fuels (gasohol).


With all that said. "A premium motor fuel will often be formulated to have both higher octane as well as more energy."
Dude, you should be a professor or something...that is way too much terminology for me lol
 

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Dude, you should be a professor or something...that is way too much terminology for me lol
How do you know i'm not? lol

Simply put, a higher octane rating doesn't mean more energy or power.
And the higher compression ratio your engine has, the higher the chances that you will need a higher octane fuel to prevent the fuel from igniting before it is supposed to.
 

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I deem you 'professor dave'. Or is that earl of sandwich? Or king of meats? lol
 

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King Meat maybe.

Has anyone actually got any video of two identical cars, any type, one with regular and one with hi-test and actually measured out a difference?

Call me old fashioned, but I believe things I can see, and I believe that you get what you pay for. "Cheap gas" always hits my ears as "cheap owner". If 87 will out perform 91, and not gum up the works, I'll buy it, but I'll need a little proof.
 

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King Meat maybe.

Has anyone actually got any video of two identical cars, any type, one with regular and one with hi-test and actually measured out a difference?

Call me old fashioned, but I believe things I can see, and I believe that you get what you pay for. "Cheap gas" always hits my ears as "cheap owner". If 87 will out perform 91, and not gum up the works, I'll buy it, but I'll need a little proof.
The debate over octane aside, I think the days of what used to be known as "cheap gas" are over. Detergents and other additives in gas are now mandated and regulated by the EPA. The gas you get at ARCO, 7-11 or whatever place you think of as cheap, is most likely the exact same gas the "premium" station is selling down the street for 10+ cents more a gallon.
 

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That's a lot of faith to be putting in the hands of companies who use the word Quality like McDonald's uses the word Nutritional.
 

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I think you have a few things backwards.



MMT is actually used to boost octane.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#MMT




Ethanol has less energy per liter than regular gasoline, so adding it to gasoline lowers the energy of the resulting fuel. It's the equivilent of adding beer to whiskey.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline#Energy_content

Now that that's clear. Let's learn that higher octane doesn't equal more energy per unit. And octane ratings are not a measurement of energy per unit.

It might seem odd that fuels with higher octane ratings explode less easily, yet are popularly thought of as more powerful. The misunderstanding is caused by confusing the ability of the fuel to resist compression detonation as opposed to the ability of the fuel to burn (combustion).
A simple explanation is that carbon-carbon bonds contain more energy than carbon-hydrogen bonds. Hence a fuel with a greater number of carbon bonds will carry more energy regardless of the octane rating. A counter example to this rule is that ethanol blend fuels have a higher octane rating, but carry a lower energy content by volume (per litre or per gallon). To a certain extent a fuel with a higher carbon ratio will be more dense than a fuel with a lower carbon ratio. Thus it is possible to formulate high octane fuels that carry less energy per liter than lower octane fuels. This is certainly true of ethanol blend fuels (gasohol).


With all that said. If you can believe the gas companies marketing claims, "A premium motor fuel will often be formulated to have both higher octane as well as more energy."
If the gas companies were completely honest, they would give us the energy rating, not the octane rating.
Everything that is posted here is correct, and thanks for posting this dwkmi. Rep your way.
 

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King Meat maybe.

Has anyone actually got any video of two identical cars, any type, one with regular and one with hi-test and actually measured out a difference?

Call me old fashioned, but I believe things I can see, and I believe that you get what you pay for. "Cheap gas" always hits my ears as "cheap owner". If 87 will out perform 91, and not gum up the works, I'll buy it, but I'll need a little proof.
Well do you mean for shear HP numbers or gas mileage numbers?

Either way, its hard to be consistent because there are so many variables involved. Just my opinion though.
 

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While shear HP or mileage numbers would be handy, I'm just trying to find a non-biased experiment concerning duribility, engine life, and - for lack of a better term - how much carbonized gunk ends up in the oil system and valvetrain. The more grit that's in there... well the worse off it is.

Again, I'm not fuel expert - obviously - but I've always believed that you get what you pay for, and after getting 1.1 Million KM out of an 85 Caprice on the "expensive" gas, I'm going to be somewhat hard to convince 87 isn't hurting my car.

Although my Avenger hasn't had a tank of 87 yet, my Caprice, SX, and motorcycle have - it's hard to get 91 sometimes when you're out travelling in the middle of nowhere, and your choices are a two-pump gas station or walking. Each of those vehicles struggled on the 87 by comparison, actually, I was in the mountains all 3 times, which is a good test, where I noticed no struggle using 91 or higher. I'm not claiming the octane itself is responsible, but the vehicles were certainly unhappy using the less expensive fuel.
 
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